Quest Helper?

[winter]

This might sound like a radical idea, and some of you might be shaking your heads already, but hear me out...

BEW is, even thus far, quite expansive. It's not a game that you can pop in, and in a half hour follow and enjoy one story arc - or even an hour, even if you already know what is going on. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but let me flesh this out a bit more...

I've played video games through my LONG LIFE, all sorts, although I'm certainly not what you would call a hard core gamer. I prefer RPG sorts of games that you can develop your character over a long time, and puzzle out things, dive into a deep plot with good cut-away scenes, get some good hack & slash in there, and be creative with a character build.

There are first person shooters - you feel like you're in the action, are you about to get jumped by an alien? Are you going to blast a beastie to smithereens? What cool new weapon are you going to pick up?

I also like a good game of Mario Kart sometimes! Pure arcade, skill, a rush of competition with the family, then it's over in a few minutes...

Erotic games are a whole other genre. They have their own charms and way and purpose for playing. One thing with many erotic games is the tendency for parts of the story, or achievements to be shrouded and very hard to find. Most people end up looking up a walkthrough and go through the motions, just so they can get to the content. I think very few people actually find their own way through the game, picking up the best lines and scenes.

I'm also a software developer, and have dabbled in game development...

So here's the idea and the reasons for it. Note - I recognize that this sort of thing adds work into the development and such, and I'm not trying to throw a monkey wrench into production, this is just something to think about.

First, it would be nice to have a sort of in-game idea of what your current goal is that you're working toward. I'm not suggesting we pick up quests, as in other games, but BEW already has achievements, so it doesn't seem far fetched to have an idea of which achievement(s) I'm approaching, or something of that nature.

Second, it would be nice to have some in-game hints about what might yield some outcome. I recognize that BEW already does a way better job about the sense of your actions, instead of some other erotic games where the outcome seems pretty random, and what you do is as much guess work as anything else... still, even in BEW, players (I) can get really lost trying to find an achievement... even with clues sometimes. Frankly, when I'm trying to 'beat the game' it sort of detracts from experiencing the story - which is what I'm really playing an erotic game for.

I do think it's fun to investigate the different paths and such, and for a simple game that you can run through in less than an hour, it's fine to finish one line, then go to the beginning and play through with different choices. When the game gets significantly more complex, like BEW, I find myself with a web of saved games, and going back and retrying things over and over, then looking for hints on line, etc... it's what we've come to expect from the genre, so BEW isn't alone there.. but it does, in my opinion, detract from the eroticism and story flow.

I have some ideas about visual mechanics that could be used in game, but we can discuss stuff like that another time, if it comes to that. For now, what do you think about the general idea?

[Wolfschadowe]

Hiya Winter,

This is a great topic of conversation, thanks for bringing it up. I'm certainly in favor of the general idea, and I've thought a lot in the past about how to implement it.

Implementation is the biggest hangup. I simply haven't found a way to do it that won't break the game, or that is easily implemented.

Where the Achievements are concerned, they are broken into two categories: Story Progression, and Content. The content Achievements are for completion who want to see everything. Those have a progress bar and are the most difficult to achieve. The Story Progression Achievements don't have progress bars, and help guide to see all the major stories. Those are significantly easier to earn.

Having some story guide seems like a good idea, especially if it defaults to "off" but can be turned on through the options. Actually getting one to work in BEW... Now that is the biggest hangup, although I'm always open to ideas.

[winter]

Oh good! I'm glad the general concept is something to consider! Thank you for promptly responding!

Thanks for the distinction of story versus content. I can understand that there are some things that you want all users to be able to navigate without too much trouble, and maybe some other things that are more difficult to find - maybe even along the line of Easter Eggs. I think it will always be true, though, that someone will post walkthroughs to get to them - but that's a whole other issue.

One suggestion:
- turning "on" the helper could be on a per achievement basis. That is, the user could go into the achievements display and select one to get help with - and maybe some are not selectable. Maybe you want them to do this every time they play, ie, it isn't stored with a saved game, or maybe it is stored?? I'd suggest that only one could be flagged for tracking at a time? This could simply set a browser variable, depending on how that is all implemented??

- showing the user could be done in the dialogs. When there is a branch that matters for the current 'tracked' achievement, there could be a visual indicator, perhaps a color change or an icon by the correct response, OR there could be just an additional general icon on the dialog, and any 'help' would only be shown when the icon was clicked/toggled, then at that point there would be something to highlight the proper response for the currently tracked achievement.

Implementation-wise, you would probably need an internal way, a array property perhaps, for each dialog answer, to indicate which achievements they are directly related to. Pseudo code: in the dialog render: "If the tracking achievement is in this response's list of achievements, mark it as special" or conversely "If one is being tracked, and it is not in this response's list of achievements, mark it as special."

Note, that idea doesn't really help with generic "enough points" requirements (assuming there are some that fit into this category). That could be mitigated by showing the points accrued, which is already in the game.

That's just a quick idea, but could be the beginning of a solution. I'm sure there are many ways to tackle it.

[winter]

I would further suggest, if something is used as suggested above, that only 'near' achievements are necessary to flag. If some are based on or extensions of others, you have to do the prerequisites first, don't start tracking the later ones until the prerequisites are done... sort of like "unlocking" an achievement path.

I think that would be not too daunting to code, and it would give the game a new dimension, playability-wise.

[Wolfschadowe]

that someone will post walkthroughs to get to them

They will always happen, and I decided to be ok with it.

- turning "on" the helper could be on a per achievement basis.

This is the only real option that could work with BEW. Set your target and be guided to it. Even if it's something simple as showing a green dot in the middle of the screen when you are on=track, and then turning it red when off track is basically the same as just highlighting the correct option. It's just an additive mode rather than a subtraction one.

I think that would be not too daunting to code, and it would give the game a new dimension, playability-wise.

I agree. I can think of a dozen ways from Sunday to implement it, and I'm not even a good programmer. I'm just a hobbiest. The really daunting part for me is the maintenance problem. How much effort will it take to maintain it? The complexity involved is high. With currently 3000 pages with an average of, say, 2 options per page is 6000 options, and the game is still in Act I. DISCLAIMER: This is quick guesstamate math. Statisticians and wonks out there are welcome to give true figures if they feel obligated to do so.

Granted, there are points where many options fall off. Let's say, for example, that the Bar path is chosen, and that cuts the options in half, so now only 3000 options. But that means somehow 3000 options have to be coded to choosing the Bar path on day 1, and 3000 options also have to be coded to the Strip Club path on day 1, and that's for only one page and one choice on the path? How is that done easily, especially over 3000+ pages? Programming the ability to handle and display those options is relatively easy. Filling the data correctly for all the options, combinations, and pages is less so. By the end of Act I that number may easily grow from 6000 to 25,000 entries to be maintained, and potentially back-filled.

I know I'm painting worst case scenario and there are certainly optimizations to it, but those add complexity and I haven't figured out how to bring it all down to the point where it's worth it.

That doesn't mean that the answer isn't out there, and I'm not trying to sound like I'm against it. I think it would be a great addition, especially if it's gated somehow so it's not just a "click to win" option. Gating is a separate discussion though.

The real question is how to easily maintain it without the complexity creating a situation where more time is spent maintaining the guideposts than is spent in creating the game. I would be willing to budget 10% of the time for it. I have yet to find a way to do it that would bring it anywhere near that level though.

The Recap that used to be in the game is an example. I spent more time and effort coding and maintaining the recap, than I did in creating new game content. It was a great idea. Most people loved it. But I scrapped it because the benefit didn't match the cost.

Any ideas on keeping, maintaining, and filling the data that drives the guidepost?

[dutch]

Okay, time to put my 2 cents worth in. I'm not a programmer nor am I a great gamer. But I likely have a view shared by many customers who come across the game. What attracted me was the mystery to solve. The erotic artwork really wasn't that much of a draw. We've been in limbo now for a couple of years while artwork is improved and new techniques are developed. However none of this moves the story line ahead.
Now I'm betting I'm one of the few who prefer the story to the art. But that's what I was looking at when I found this. Anybody remember there was a robbery and people were killed. Didn't think so. But everyone remembers the last image of their favorite girl in the story. Oddly enough, I've seen this in other settings where you just can't keep ahead of technological development. Two years from now we could be marveling at the next section but now waiting for the new 3D holographic images that are all the rage. Then we stop and retool the entire game to the newest form and complain it only took 3 more years. When my team was building a massive report on current information we had tons of issues. We lacked the man power to do it quickly and as time progressed the work we had done was aged out and had to be redone. That's the issue with a high quality requirement and limited man power. I'm afraid Wolf has a wonderful dream but may not be able to achieve it with the help available.

I may be totally wrong. but I hope Wolf can find a way to make it all come together. Otherwise this could be an over reach that could be impossible to finish.

[OpineegChipp]

Hi Wolf,

Good to see discussion is still alive on continuing the game. This is just a thought, but how about instead of maintaining the guidepost if it involves rewriting/recoding the game into a new format, just break it off where it is and create new separate independent "spin-offs" or chapters maybe to continue the game. You could have a "spin-off" per character(s) path perhaps. Seems like you could sort of start fresh without recreating what you already created. Maybe include some kind of overlap story buffer with each spin-off for continuity on path variations. I guess I'm saying is to more or less just let go of the guideposts from the original game and not worry about them. Perhaps this would reduce some of the workload (?)… Maybe you would be able to release updates on a per path basis on a quicker timeline.

I don't know, maybe it wouldn't make it less complex to any significance. Some other games I've played have gotten to be too big almost to download as they have been expanded, or saves weren't compatible requiring restarting the game each update.

Maybe this may be departing too much from what you have in mind, but maybe it will bring some options to mind for you.

Thanks for what you've done so far and good luck!

[palinathas]

I'd like to chime in here. I'd rather see Wolf concentrate on bringing the story itself to our screens, instead of holding things up to work on a "helper" tool. This sounds like a great "third-party" tool for someone to work on (either in conjunction with the wiki/walkthroughs or based on their insights). I see it as sort of an overlay, guiding you to a path/goal that you have input into the program. It would be able to read the values and interpret them to show you what options to choose to reach your desired goal. Seems like something I would use when I am trying to reach the last few achievements, or if I want to see a "perfect path" unfold. Perhaps somewhere later down the road, when much of the game is done, Wolf would share some of his "behind-the-scenes" info to the "helper program" team to let them go from 70-90% correct, to near 100%?

How difficult this would be to implement, I don't know, but I'm seeing it as a "browser extension" type program, that reads what page you are on, in the game, and the current values, then has (pre-programmed) guidance (I like the green dot idea) to highlight which option to pick next to get the goal you want.

Note: I do not volunteer as someone to design this, not my area of expertise.

[winter]

Game production is absolutely the most important path forward, in my opinion.

I also agree that the story is way more important than the graphics, although I think there is a certain threshold that must be met to enjoy the game, but the original graphics met that, in my opinion. For me, an erotic story and progression is way more compelling than a (series of) picture (s).

Wolf, the idea was just that, and not a really important one.

To continue the thought, though, even if it's an academic exercise... I don't have it all worked out, but here are some thoughts.

First, I picture a single function that is used on every response and hot spot in the game, so the same function call would be added everywhere, but once in place, there's no maintenance on that part, and adding it to new code is just a matter of course.

The function itself would check the active achievement against a list of achievements for the given response/action, and Mark the response accordingly.

Next, the sign posts. I admit it might be a bit of work to back fill existing ones, but when developing new dialogs, just consider which achievements are pertinent at that time, and add them to a list for the response. I suspect there are at most a handful for any given response. Unless you bring in new achievements for existing screens, I don't imagine there would be much maintenance, but I could easily be missing something.

I don't think that anything additional has to be tracked in saved games beyond what is currently used to validate completion of achievements.

What might be tricky is determining when a player does something that takes them off the path -the red light condition. Maybe there's simply no red light, just bread crumbs, and if you missed a crumb among the way, there's no indication... The user has to go back to a saved game and try again, like they do now, and pick up the trail.

Just thoughts at this point, maybe a future add on, as Palinathas suggested. Don't let this detail your current efforts.

[Wolfschadowe]

Thanks, everyone, for the great conversation! Story will always be king for BEW.

Two years from now we could be marveling at the next section but now waiting for the new 3D holographic images that are all the rage. Then we stop and retool the entire game to the newest form and complain it only took 3 more years.

Retooling is never going to be a holdup for BEW. While it's true that I'm playing with ideas and technologies, that is only because it's where my interest is at those moments.

The holdup will always be my interest and passion for working on the game and telling the story. Lately that passion hasn't been there much, and several attempts to rekindle that passion. I'm still tinkering and poking at the game almost daily, but still haven't moved back into "full production" yet, and I don't know when I will. Could be tomorrow. Could be two years from now. Could be anywhere in-between. Apologies if that is disappointing for some to hear.

Frankly, I'm flattered and honored that folks are still around and interest is still there.

You could have a "spin-off" per character(s) path perhaps.

The way the game is coded, every episode is pretty much stand-alone. It just plugs into the overall game wrapper that is the UI. The main challenge is just continuity. I have an Excel spreadsheet that helps maintain that. It's huge. Requires the 64-bit version of Excel to run. heh.

This sounds like a great "third-party" tool for someone to work on (either in conjunction with the wiki/walkthroughs or based on their insights).

I agree. If it's ever going to happen, it would either be a 3rd-party "mod" or a plug-in.

Wolf, the idea was just that, and not a really important one.

It's a great idea, and one that has brought a great discussion! Don't worry though, it won't delay the game. But maybe it will inspire someone to code up a mod.

[Wolfschadowe]

Oh yeah,

I forgot to mention, the game does have a cheat code for anyone who get's too frustrated. No, it's not the Konami code.

Just type the code. Refresh the window and go wild with the Debug Menu.

Of course, anyone who puts the cheat code on the forum will be Doomed. <Insert evil laugh here>

[Tao Dude]

Not wishing to steal Wolf's thunder or give away the family jewels (and definitely not the Cheat Code), but a lot of what is being asked for is already available, albeit in a form that is not amenable to being shared as is (Wolf has already mentioned the Debug menu, and it is a double-edged sword - if you ever discover the cheat code, I recommend using it on a sand-box version of the game, as injudicious use will bollox things up big time).

Back the the Helper idea, the biggest issue I see is this: it should be clear to most players that this is not a linear game, and it has multiple branches and different paths. Also, not every decision has immediate consequences.

This means that any hint system would not only need to know which path the player was currently seeking to follow, as opposed to inferring it from the path they were currently on, and would have to 'test play' each decision forward to the next decision point at least or possibly through a decision tree like a chess game does to determine the best choice of move for the chosen path (assuming of course that you know what path you want to be on, and that's another story).

[winter]

this is not a linear game, and it has multiple branches and different paths. Also, not every decision has immediate consequences.

Indeed it seems that the game was not built on the basis of achievements, but rather that achievements come about as markers of the various story lines and points. It may seem like a petty distinction, but it does make a difference regarding game design, and may be partly the cause of game complexity. I don't know how it's coded, and I've not seen the spreadsheet that you're talking about, wolf, but it seems to me that it's done more like life than like a game hahaha. It both is part of the charm of the game, and part of what makes moving along so hard.

Keeping everything straight seems more like a web, grown organically, than a decision-tree based game.

If I'm to offer any advice from a project manager point of view, it would be, sometimes less is more. As the game days go by, and decisions are made, maybe some plot lines, or entire character lines, go away altogether. By day 3 or 4, maybe the possible love interests are cut in half, and the web narrows even more day by day? Again, you might already have this planned.. but it would seem important to do something like that to keep yourself sane, regarding possible interactions and game continuity. I think that's fine though... the player can just start over and explore relationships with a whole different set of love interests.

Along those lines, if you wanted to, you could turn the release of chapters on its side... Pick a story line or love interest and really get into it, and follow it through the week. That would make it easier to keep things straight and maintain momentum... then future releases go back to earlier in the week and follow other paths and interests to their fruition?

[Tao Dude]

If I'm to offer any advice from a project manager point of view, it would be, sometimes less is more. As the game days go by, and decisions are made, maybe some plot lines, or entire character lines, go away altogether. By day 3 or 4, maybe the possible love interests are cut in half, and the web narrows even more day by day?

Excellent point, and my inner project manager agrees with you but this needs to map to all the story lines, and my inner science geek loves the complex interactions that force you to take the holistic view that does not bear simplification.

Wolf made the choice early in the game to make a number of the female characters romanceable, but to please the fans, he increased the number of romanceable women from six to eight, and had to then weave extra bits into the story to allow Brads's relationships with Jasmine and Azumi to develop.

This spans the period from when i discovered the game to where we are now. As well as not being linear, this is not a 'harem' game: developing relationships with some of the women means that the others have to be put on ice, or at least kept in the friend zone (as you say elsewhere in your post, a bit like life). Wolf hasn't fully revealed how that is going to pan out, but he has given us some hints, including that not so far down the line, there will be some choices that mean Brad will not make it to the end of the day.

[JFR]

... had to then weave extra bits into the story to allow Brads's relationships with Jasmine and Azumi to develop.
...

And "M," but we haven't met her in-game yet.